Clint's Reposts

Tao wrote:

"As I have said before, the war in Iraq did nothing for my freedom, if it did I have not been able to see who our campaign in Iraq makes me more free or secures my freedom."

Ah, I see. Well, IMHO, there is much more going on here then the rather provincial viewpoint of whether this war in Iraq has been good for one's own freedom. From your statement, I immediately thought of the poem by John Donne:


For Whom The Bell Tolls
John Donne

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.


It's true we can argue as to the rationale for going into Iraq. But, at the end of the day I rather think the picture is more like is expressed in the poem. While some may argue that we are increasing death both short term and long term by being in Iraq, I've never felt that way. Perhaps the war in Iraq did more for your freedom then you could possibly know yet. It's too early to tell yet.

C

David wrote in another post: "I think you folks in the cheering section are getting fewer and quieter by the day."

Nice try David, and I'm not saying that cheering will continue for much longer as a choir:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=79106&messageid=1079583984

but the truth of the matter is (and this has got to hurt some folks), that the majority of the citizens in the U.S. are stubbornly supporting Bush, at the moment at least:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/polls/2004-04-19-gallup-poll_x.htm

There are things to think about while we wait for Kerry to make sense:

The Press:
It doesn't take a lot of sensitivity to realize the huge liberalism of the mainstream press and the way they keep "picking" at those they dislike instead of reporting news. Instead of reporting: "Another troop was killed today in Iraq." -- it's more like: "Thanks to the dirty rotten stinking lies, and awful nation building of the Bush Administration, another troop died in vain and his family blames Bush once we explained to them why they should." Fortunately, the majority in the U.S. can see through this bullcrap. The press is the third political party, along with Nader. Who is really messing up Kerry's chances?

Education:
It's amazing, but many students, thankfully, escape the influence of what appear to be a mostly liberal, often unionized, education system. Which just goes to show what happens when a student thinks for himself. And more of them seem to be doing that. Look at Tao.

WMD's:
Where are Saddams WMD's? Don't be surprised when they turn up in someone's face. I predict within 5 years. You can pooh-pooh the idea, but that is intellectual laziness. Don't worry be happy.

Nation Building:
"the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Perhaps. But the road to hell can be paved with no intentions. It may seem philosophically clean to just stay the hell out of the rest of the world's affairs. But my friend, let's mind experiment that you are the one behind the prison camp wall, or standing on the platform, next in line for the shredder. Can you tell me that when a liberator appears to release you from your hell you will repudiate the offer based on philosophy of the non-entanglement of U.S. interests? You just happen to have the luxury of not being behind the wall or on the platform. I wonder where your philosophy would wander were you a soul wanting liberation!? A few thumbscrews can do wonders for ones world perspective!

Frightened individuals take no action when witnessing crimes against fellow men (think muggings in N.Y. city). I'm not saying we have to be everywhere, all the time, but I sense a certain nobleness in not ignoring the rest of the world's suffering. It's a small world these days. Not acting aggressively to stop genocide and other crimes in the world is like saying you shouldn't try to help a family member who needs help. Many in the U.S. come from a place of isolationism, but that doesn't make it cosmically righteous.

Screw Ups:
I acknowledge that we (we get the government we deserve) sometimes screw up regarding U.S. world entanglements. But that doesn't make our impulse wrong, just our execution. It's a messy, messy system up there in D.C., not to mention in the entire world. So sue it.

Clint

David wrote: "In the long run, there could be a positive aspect of all this. Perhaps we'll finally get a belly-full of all this fruitless fighting and decide we can stop trying to run the show in the Middle East. It'd be nice if we could get out of Iraq if only so that we'd be able to deal with the unfinished business with Osama in a little more serious way. The Taliban has been rebuilding and Afghanistan is once again both a safe haven and a breeding ground for terrorists."

[begin tongue in cheek rant...]

I am so pleased and excited with you David to think about the U.S. finally getting out of Iraq where we certainly never belonged! The timing couldn't be better and our allies will be quite relieved! I'm so happy to think about that! It makes me want to tie a yellow ribbon around a tree right now!

Besides, our economy needs those soldiers back--spending--not fighting. I'm sure we can take care of Osama with one of those cute little drone planes I've been hearing about, so there is no need to worry about putting anyone in harms way there either don't you think?

As D. Warren said: "in the Middle East, where democracy and rule of law have proven again and again to be desert mirages -- it is victory to the most ruthless." And as we all know, Americans are *not* the ruthless type, having been raised on Aunt Marth's apple pie, hot showers in the morning, and good, Christian values. Certainly most of our American men are sensitive, caring, and understanding--I just can't believe our bad, bad president would use them this way. How cruel. None of those young fellas should be there! And don't get me started about those poor young gals over there in harms way. OHMYGOSH.

David wrote: "Sure hope we can learn some lessons that we might have learned from the Clinton administration. The recent large-scale ethnic cleansing by our former allies in Kosovo and the mess in Haiti should let us know that nations can't be built with bullets and bombs."

You are right. Lets get back to dealing with those mean terrorist people as a law enforcement issue and get them into the courts again like Clinton did. Besides, it's just to much work to ask the CIA and the FBI, and all those other organizations to reinvent themselves. Way too much work.

Let the Middle East go about their business unmolested. Oh, I do feel a little sorry for those Iraqis left in the lurch, but hey, at least we stayed around longer than last time.

But like you, I'm ready to say "Nice knowing ya, wouldn't want to be ya."

C