If you've posted in forums you might remember writing some decent responses. I usually spend a lot of time polishing my discussion forum responses depending on the subject or who I am talking to. Often I want to remember what I said about something, but finding the original post can be difficult. So it makes sense to capture the better responses for later review. Welcome to Clint's Reposts.Sunday, May 09, 2004
Warren was always pessimistic about Iraq democracy
...now it seems that David Warren is starting to show some cracks as well. He still says he supports it, but he's given up on the last of the justifications he originally made for the invasion, as far as I can see. He no longer believes there is any chance for democracy in Iraq (or any other country that wants to keep its Muslim faith). The only reason to keep our soldiers there now, apparently is because we'll look yellow if we turn and run while the Iraqis are shooting at us.
David Warren has never expressed anything but pessimism for the concept of democracy in Iraq and I've always agreed with him on that point. I think you are tuning in to your own left-leaning biases as to who David Warren is, and what he represents. There are no cracks. There is likely frustration.
The war on Iraq in my mind has never had anything to do with installing democracy. It has everything to do with a response to Terrorism. It may not prove to even be the right response to terrorism, but it is a response none-the-less. As Warren said, the war was about "the need to effect profound political change in the Middle Eastern region. This had everything to do with removing the threat of Islamist terrorism, which has been able to use the cover of virulently anti-Western regimes." That's the reason. Everything else is filler.
BTW, there is a good argument for not looking "yellow". It's our lack of staying power in previous conflicts that's provided forward movement for terrorists - look at Spain. As a country we are generally wishy washy when it comes to sticking things out, but less so than Europe I suspect.
I think he's got his finger on the pulse of the American people right now. I agree with Warren that we have stopped caring very much about the liberation of the Iraqis and are mainly concerned about not looking weak.
Looking weak in the eyes of one's enemy or potential enemy is a grave mistake. We have already liberated Iraq as far as I'm concerned -- we did it months ago in large part. Our best course now would be to turn over the governing reigns as best as we are able, and fade into the background asap. Should Iraq begin to become a haven and training ground for terrorists again, we should respond again.
The most interesting sign of how far Warren has come in his thinking over the course of the war is not in his loss of faith that freedom can work in Iraq (which was never all that great), but in his tacit admission that it's failed in America.
Well, he's been saying that since February at least: "How do you build up democracy in Iraq when it's falling apart in the United States?" And he's probably thought that since before the Iraq war.
Personally, I've been aware of liberty decreasing by the day here in the U.S., town by town, across the country. Even really intelligent and thoughtful people I know seem to have lost a grasp of what liberty is and how to preserve it, and why it should be preserved. Liberty seems more a group agreement now--when it's convenient, than a self evident truth.
For instance, in my mind, the "Historic District" designation is simply one of many clever and contemporary methods by which liberty is lost. The fact that you disagree and feel "community review" is a thing to be placed in front of individual property rights--a long standing tradition in the U.S.--speaks volumes to me of just how quickly we are on the downward spiral.
But one of the best, if most depressing quotes that Warren's made was:
"From top to bottom, we now live under a system of governance that is called "democratic", but remains so only in outward form. The ability of the people to make choices effecting their own lives by voting, at any level of government, has almost disappeared, as we have become locked in by massive bureaucracies and vested interests, integrated across both "public" and "private" spheres. The chain of command which was once established -- the idea that real power would be vested in political representatives that the people could remove in free elections -- has been broken."
I agree. Fortunately one can still live a great life in the midst of this, especially when one minimizes as much as possible one's contact with the bureaucracies and vested interests. But it isn't our great-great grandfathers country anymore.
C
David Warren has never expressed anything but pessimism for the concept of democracy in Iraq and I've always agreed with him on that point. I think you are tuning in to your own left-leaning biases as to who David Warren is, and what he represents. There are no cracks. There is likely frustration.
The war on Iraq in my mind has never had anything to do with installing democracy. It has everything to do with a response to Terrorism. It may not prove to even be the right response to terrorism, but it is a response none-the-less. As Warren said, the war was about "the need to effect profound political change in the Middle Eastern region. This had everything to do with removing the threat of Islamist terrorism, which has been able to use the cover of virulently anti-Western regimes." That's the reason. Everything else is filler.
BTW, there is a good argument for not looking "yellow". It's our lack of staying power in previous conflicts that's provided forward movement for terrorists - look at Spain. As a country we are generally wishy washy when it comes to sticking things out, but less so than Europe I suspect.
I think he's got his finger on the pulse of the American people right now. I agree with Warren that we have stopped caring very much about the liberation of the Iraqis and are mainly concerned about not looking weak.
Looking weak in the eyes of one's enemy or potential enemy is a grave mistake. We have already liberated Iraq as far as I'm concerned -- we did it months ago in large part. Our best course now would be to turn over the governing reigns as best as we are able, and fade into the background asap. Should Iraq begin to become a haven and training ground for terrorists again, we should respond again.
The most interesting sign of how far Warren has come in his thinking over the course of the war is not in his loss of faith that freedom can work in Iraq (which was never all that great), but in his tacit admission that it's failed in America.
Well, he's been saying that since February at least: "How do you build up democracy in Iraq when it's falling apart in the United States?" And he's probably thought that since before the Iraq war.
Personally, I've been aware of liberty decreasing by the day here in the U.S., town by town, across the country. Even really intelligent and thoughtful people I know seem to have lost a grasp of what liberty is and how to preserve it, and why it should be preserved. Liberty seems more a group agreement now--when it's convenient, than a self evident truth.
For instance, in my mind, the "Historic District" designation is simply one of many clever and contemporary methods by which liberty is lost. The fact that you disagree and feel "community review" is a thing to be placed in front of individual property rights--a long standing tradition in the U.S.--speaks volumes to me of just how quickly we are on the downward spiral.
But one of the best, if most depressing quotes that Warren's made was:
"From top to bottom, we now live under a system of governance that is called "democratic", but remains so only in outward form. The ability of the people to make choices effecting their own lives by voting, at any level of government, has almost disappeared, as we have become locked in by massive bureaucracies and vested interests, integrated across both "public" and "private" spheres. The chain of command which was once established -- the idea that real power would be vested in political representatives that the people could remove in free elections -- has been broken."
I agree. Fortunately one can still live a great life in the midst of this, especially when one minimizes as much as possible one's contact with the bureaucracies and vested interests. But it isn't our great-great grandfathers country anymore.
C
